We are doomed. Repent and ask for forgiveness.

[agapit]

Wow, so much new info to catch up on here!!! I am trying to get my head around all these issues and was wondering under this train of thought. What would be an appropriate grip width for this approach. Obviously too wide puts too much pressure on the bottom arm and two narrow loses stability. Its seems as though Bubka's grip width widened slightly over his years and was wondering if there was any reason why this had happened.

Obviously you do not what to change the width of your grip during approach or take-off. Out of all systems I found that this one bellow works the best for pole carry, plant and work on the pole. In some cases the width may be adjusted very slightly based on particular athlete and conditions.

1. Stand straight with shoulders perpendicular to the line of the runway and the pole parallel to the line of the runway
2. Extend you r left arm in front at the eye level without turning your shoulders.
3. Your right arm grip will be right above your nose and just in your field of vision

[master]

... Anyway, this is about as early as I can conceive of letting go with the bottom hand.
I’m going to keep working to see how much earlier I can let go. This should be interesting.

Tim, is it fair to say you were not "pushing" with your left hand/arm? I'm guessing that if you are trying to be in a position to let go at time of take off, your left hand/arm is just being used to guide the pole during the plant. Is that how you might describe it?

- master

[Tim McMichael]

I am tired and feeling my 40 years, but this has inspired me to spike up and see what is possible. This is me in the back yard today on a very small pole. It’s a new camera, and I don’t know how to work it, so the date is wrong. It is also not a completely free takeoff. The pole is bent slightly as my heel leaves the ground, but that is not my fault. Tiphy kept catching my step wrong. Anyway, this is about as early as I can conceive of letting go with the bottom hand.

http://www.treemo.com/users/tmcmicha/ch ... set/31091/

I’m going to keep working to see how much earlier I can let go. This should be interesting.

Well I think this was technically your best vault. LOL. You still was just a little late with the free take-off but I hope now you see that it is not that difficult.

While you were doing all this "swining" imagine what you left arm could have done?!!!

Regards.

P.S. Not you don't have to come up with $500. LOL.

P.S.P.S. You were late for two reasons. First your left arm did not extand far enough away from your chest during the plant because your pole drop began too late and second, you had an intention to move your chest forward excesivelly that made you move flat through the take-off and run into the pole too early.

P.S.P.S.P.S. Many people will be saved because of this little video you have done today. Thank you.

If what I do in the video is what you meant by bending the pole with the right arm alone, then we have been arguing at cross purposes. I knew this was possible years ago and incorporated its implications in my jump. If this is the case, I think you will find that we agree on other issues as well – in principle at least. What you have said so far, however, suggests that something like this is possible.

http://www.treemo.com/users/tmcmicha/ch ... set/31091/

This is not what I do in the video. I let go of the pole; but only AFTER I have already left the ground and the pole has started moving, not before. The input from the left arm is minimal, but it is still present. I can probably let go even earlier, but I still doubt very seriously that I can let go before I leave the ground. The more I think about it, the less it seems possible from a physics standpoint. The angles and lines of force just don't add up to the middle of the pole beginning to deflect without some input from the bottom arm. I will gladly concede that that input does not need to be interpreted as a "push," especially if it means a blocking action. But the illustration I have drawn looks to me like it would take the kind of miracle that I'm pretty sure Newton didn't believe in. Till I do it or see it happen I'm keeping the $500 to pay for possible medical bills.

[vaultman18]

Tim nice vid I realize that was far from the biggest pole you can jump on. I must say good atempt but you must be free at take-off. I also know your daughter didn't fully understand the importance of catching your step but I am sure by the time she is five she will. LOL I was unable to get the vid I wanted today my vaulter is still tender in her wrist and I didn't feel it was worth trying. I believe I can do it myself though probably not on my biggest pole but a pole over my body weight. You should try again treating it more like a one arm drill making sure to be free at take-off and jump up, it will work. The pole needs no help to bend other than your speed and take-off.

[vaultman18]

Tim it can happen exactly as you have drawn. It can be done without ever putting your left hand on the pole. I have seen it happen. I actually think you can take-off with one hand and put your left hand on after take-off and begin pulling and finish the swing. Once again it is very important to have a free take-off.

[agapit]

http://www.treemo.com/users/tmcmicha/channel/item/68359/inset/31091/

This is not what I do in the video. I let go of the pole; but only AFTER I have already left the ground and the pole has started moving, not before. The input from the left arm is minimal, but it is still present.

You did not achieve a free take-off either. That is a prerequisite for the immediate pull. Please, read my comments to your video and try again after your tendons recover. LOL.

You see free take-off is not much in itself but is serves greater purpose in the continuous chain of the inputs.

Tha is why some people do jump before pole touches the box, but do not know why they are doing it and for what purpose.

Now, you you see the purpose?

[Tim McMichael]

... Anyway, this is about as early as I can conceive of letting go with the bottom hand.
I’m going to keep working to see how much earlier I can let go. This should be interesting.

Tim, is it fair to say you were not "pushing" with your left hand/arm? I'm guessing that if you are trying to be in a position to let go at time of take off, your left hand/arm is just being used to guide the pole during the plant. Is that how you might describe it?

- master

I think it is absolutely fair to say that I am not pushing, but as my previous post suggests, I still believe that the left arm serves a vital purpose in starting the middle of the pole moving. The purpose of my experiment is to explore exactly what that is. I’ve got some ideas, but I will have to do some more thinking (and jumping). If it turns out that I don’t need to have the left hand on the pole at all - throughout the entire plant and takeoff - I will be the first to say so, but if not, I’m going to try to find the language that will accurately describe what is happening. I think that beginning from the extreme minimum will help.

[agapit]

... Anyway, this is about as early as I can conceive of letting go with the bottom hand.
I’m going to keep working to see how much earlier I can let go. This should be interesting.

Tim, is it fair to say you were not "pushing" with your left hand/arm? I'm guessing that if you are trying to be in a position to let go at time of take off, your left hand/arm is just being used to guide the pole during the plant. Is that how you might describe it?

- master

I think it is absolutely fair to say that I am not pushing, but as my previous post suggests, I still believe that the left arm serves a vital purpose in starting the middle of the pole moving. The purpose of my experiment is to explore exactly what that is. I’ve got some ideas, but I will have to do some more thinking (and jumping). If it turns out that I don’t need to have the left hand on the pole at all - throughout the entire plant and takeoff - I will be the first to say so, but if not, I’m going to try to find the language that will accurately describe what is happening. I think that beginning from the extreme minimum will help.

Please don't hide pole pushing behind fancy middle of the pole moving. Just think if you train to free up left arm and than make it work for you, what extra thing you can do with it.

You need to use left arm during the plant it does make it easier. However, I must say there were attempts early last century to run up and plant holding the pole in the right hand only. We do not need to go there.

[Tim McMichael]

It will probably take me a couple of practices to nail a free takeoff. There is a lot of rust that needs to come off for that to happen, but I think you can see that I am serious about giving your suggestions a try and your doctrine an honest hearing.

[agapit]

It will probably take me a couple of practices to nail a free takeoff. There is a lot of rust that needs to come off for that to happen, but I think you can see that I am serious about giving your suggestions a try and your doctrine an honest hearing.

Yes I do. And it is beautiful at the end you will love it. LOL.

[master]

Tim, thanks for doing this experimentation. My right shoulder is too old to do the experiments myself.

Regarding the need for something to start the bend, I submit for consideration that the pre-bend of the pole provides just the necessary physical conditions to do just that. From an engineering perspective, if you load a column it will resist the load very well if the column is uniform and of sufficient mechanical strength to avoid being crushed. But supply a bias and the collapse of the column can occur without crushing. The pre-bend pre disposes the column to bend in that direction. Once started, the bend is easily continued by the applied force.

OK. Now its everybody's opportunity to shoot holes in that idea.

- master

[Tim McMichael]

Tim, thanks for doing this experimentation. My right shoulder is too old to do the experiments myself.

Regarding the need for something to start the bend, I submit for consideration that the pre-bend of the pole provides just the necessary physical conditions to do just that. From an engineering perspective, if you load a column it will resist the load very well if the column is uniform and of sufficient mechanical strength to avoid being crushed. But supply a bias and the collapse of the column can occur without crushing. The pre-bend pre disposes the column to bend in that direction. Once started, the bend is easily continued by the applied force.

OK. Now its everybody's opportunity to shoot holes in that idea.

- master

Is more force necessary to colapse the column if the bias is less and less force necessary if the bias is more? This is exactly my difficulty with Agapit's theory. It seems to me that the right arm alone will apply force straight down the column of the pole rendering it too strong to begin to bend. If the left arm gives a little more bend than the pre-bend supplies, then it seems that moving the pole would be easier.