Why the plant is late?

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.

My plant is late because

My arms are moving pole too slow forward
9
18%
I have no idea
3
6%
I begin my pole drop too late
37
76%
 
Total votes: 49

PVstudent
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Unread postby PVstudent » Fri May 04, 2007 11:24 pm

The plant (in my world) ends as soon as the foot touches the ground. Where your pole is at that time is crucial. It must be far enough from your body in order to have room to perform a free take-off. The jump begins after foot touches the ground. Let’s not mix the two.

I Agree with the definition and statement.

All I am trying to say that the pole must have enough time to freefall. (freefall is the fastest and most economical way to descend the pole into the box) The elite vaulters usually cover last six steps in 1.3 sec +/-, so the drop has to begin at around 6 steps.

No problem here I agree.

"You can have extended arm without locking the elbow or sacrificing the distance. This is the natural flex that Petrov described. I do not think Petrov suggested to flax arm close to the chest. The reason I say it does not seem that the issue was clearly identified by them is precisely because they leave it to interpretation as far as distance from the chest. Well I hope I persuaded you that the bigger distance is more advantageous for performing the free take-off."

Your statement about the extended arm without locking the elbow I accept. I do not understand "... or sacrificing distance"

In terms of what Petrov says I quote from Petrov's article "Pole Vault - the state of the art.


New Studies in Athletics, 2004, 19(3), 23-32.

page 30 "The drop must not be abrupt(if the vaulter was not late in initiating it) and it must fall within the rhythm of the last strides.
In the last steps of the drop, the vaulter should not "lose" the pole by stretching the left arm forwards (as if looking for support or the box). All movements during the drop take place while the left hand is kept over the left elbow."!



The Geometry of the situation in regard to creating space for the vaulter to execute a free take-off suggests that the optimal solution is not to either extend the left arm forward towards the box or keep it flexed close to the chest. The mathematical solution to optimizing the space in which to execute the free take-off is to move the left arm slightly forward whilst continuing in a predominantly upward pathway in concert with the right hand.

To fully extend the left arm from the shoulders reduces the amplitude of the space (defined by the apex angle of the vaulter,pole ground triangle),
causes excessive advance of the take-off foot in front of the vaulter's centre of mass at take-off initial contact, lowers the centre of mass and creates more work for the vaulter in the transition into the take-off.

I remain to be convinced.

I do want to know more about the solution to the transition problem in the plant. I cannot see how the extended left arm promotes a free-take off. I see it still as contributing to being under. I look forward to enlightenment
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agapit
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Unread postby agapit » Sat May 05, 2007 11:45 am

highhopes wrote:Wow I didn’t know there was a set spot to start the pole drop. I learned to start mine at six steps because it feels more natural. Everyone else at my school starts theirs way too early and you can see they don’t get as much speed because of it.


There isn’t really a set spot to start the drop. The spot depends on the speed, grip height as well as on the height of the pole carry (tip height). It is always fluent process even with the same athlete, however by paying attention to this one can improve the plant results and address free take-off correctly.
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highhopes
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Unread postby highhopes » Wed May 16, 2007 6:10 pm

What is the best way to determine when you should start your pole drop because if I run more then 80% my plant is late and when I try to change my plant it is way to early.
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agapit
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Unread postby agapit » Wed May 16, 2007 6:47 pm

highhopes wrote:What is the best way to determine when you should start your pole drop because if I run more then 80% my plant is late and when I try to change my plant it is way to early.


do you have a coach?
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highhopes
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Unread postby highhopes » Wed May 16, 2007 9:24 pm

Yes I do have a coach for the first time ever and it is his first year coaching. The only problem is that he is working with all the other vaulters to help them catch up to me and he spends most of his time working with the high jumpers. His is the most qualified person at my school only because he vaulted 15’ 3â€Â
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pole drop timing drill for Hs kids

Unread postby fchipr » Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:13 am

We have the hurdle drill for pole drop and plant initiation timing. We place a high hurdle next to the runway at 3 lefts out and one at 2. We tell the kids start that drop right after youve established stride lengt and run under it at the start of their 6 or 7 lefts. By time they come screaming thru or by that first hurdle that pole needs to be droped to the hurdle height or basically parallel, not three ft above the hurdle. Because by time their lil brains think next they are on their next to last left and its time for both hands to start moving up or it'll never get to be a"real" plant in being fully up or aligned at their ears. three feet above that hurdle at 3 lefts out turns out to create the perfect late plant. One that all newbies just know is not late, because they know they can get that plant from carry to full extension and it only takes them a half a stride....Chuckle (never mind wild inbalance issues rushing a plant from way above your head to the box in one rapid swoop)

gotta watch for pole drops that drop too much below parallel too, especially on smaller less brute force types as it'll tend to create a symptom of a long last step to counter the balance tug to the torso as it drops below that hurdle height, at the last right while the hands sleep and have not started moving.

Anyhow just by real life approach. As soon as they master this they begin running thru and at full speed at the box, pole bends, bottom hands don't collapse...they become brave lil newbies!!! AND it becomes FUN again!

PS the pole carry we keep high on the hip and front hand at chest not below. That bottom hand we want above forehead at plant and we get their with our top secret crooked ball cap drill. Kids wear a base ball hat so the bill is over the right ear. That plant stays tight up the side and as it is shoved up above their heads it goes right by their ears and strikes the cap off their heads. Its funny how many kids miss the bill of the cap for awhile.

See ya

PS thanks for all the great reminders on perspective on top hands, trail legs, rockback to invert etc. Even if I've heard these technical explanations a million times and can explain em myself you guys always have a new nugget in their for the always learning coach out their who has always learning vaulters wanting to go higher. I have a 11ft girl who we have just finally fixed her takeoff so she can lead with chest most times, hit a proper stretch between lead knee and trail leg and now snap that quickly right to being "on top of the Pole quickly" (thats this times nugget for me)

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Unread postby Tim McMichael » Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:06 am

I find that I can sometimes get vaulters to take off on who have been under their whole lives just by teaching them to let the pole free fall into the box. I don't give them a set number of steps out to get this started, I just tell them the pole should be weightless during the plant because the tip is falling instead of being controlled and carried. If the pole is free of the vaulter, she can put her takeoff foot where it should be, provided that her run is structured properly. No amount of work on the run will fix an under step if the vaulter is carrying thirty pounds of effective pole weight. This moves their center of gravity forward and forces their foot strike to be in front of where it should be.

I had one of my vaulters work on his plant with an enormous pole, and he could not believe that he could even run with it. We went to the scale in the weight room and I showed him that the pole itself weighed only seven pounds. He was learning to work his run so that he was carrying only the actual weight of the pole.

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Unread postby LHSVaulterJJR » Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:40 pm

i agree completley and i have a problem with this as well. i dont let the pole drop naturally and when i plant it is a little late but this also causes my left arm (im a righty) to plant to the right .. its still high and almost straight but it comes across my face instead of staying out to the left.
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Unread postby Fishy » Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:58 pm

well i have a pacer mystic and it's an incredibly light pole. It makes me start dropping the pole on my 4th left on a 6 lefts run...........something is wrong isn't it?
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agapit
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Unread postby agapit » Fri May 02, 2008 7:24 pm

Fishy wrote:well i have a pacer mystic and it's an incredibly light pole. It makes me start dropping the pole on my 4th left on a 6 lefts run...........something is wrong isn't it?


Nothing is wrong if you grip on the pole at 13 feet. :)
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Unread postby Robert schmitt » Fri May 02, 2008 11:08 pm

agapit wrote: There isn’t really a set spot to start the drop. The spot depends on the speed, grip height as well as on the height of the pole carry (tip height).


Coaches look at me like I have three eyes when I tell them this. I don't know it just makes perfect sense to me.

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Unread postby OH-IOvaulter » Sat May 03, 2008 12:55 am

It makes beautiful sense if you compare the time it takes for a pole to free fall from carry height to ground and the times on dj's chart for the amount of time it takes the vaulter to cover the last 3 lefts of the approach. Now after looking at it, it makes perfect sense that this is the only way a pole should be put into the box. :yes:
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