Bottom arm at takeoff

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.
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Unread postby VTechVaulter » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:03 pm

VaultMarq26 wrote:I was talking to some coaches this weekend that were saying the the pressure should all be on the top arm.....it sounds crazy, but when you think abotu it putting pressure on the bottom arm will cause you to drop your chest down where top arm pressure will cause the chest to move up.

I got a 15 minute explination on it and then it started making sense, but if anyone else can explain it better, please do.


ding ding ding... we have a winner.

i will word it as i was told by multiple coaches. reach up as high as you can with your right hand, but be loose at the shoulder. as it hits the shoulder stretches, and your head should be under your left arm, and your right shoulder hand be way back. now drive up and in with the right arm. a "big" bottom arm looks that way with pros because they t are gripping so high the angles let that arm be straighter and still get the chest in. THE CHEST IS THE KEY. big chest drive reguardless of arm pressure will lead to better vaulting.

also, at Bell athletics, he talks about as the right arm drags back, slightly allow the torso to open up, then close it when your row. your core is the strongest part of the body so let it store up so energy for you to put back in the pole!!

alsooo, its easier said then done. just keep working hard and eventually it all comes
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Unread postby VaultMarq26 » Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:42 pm

VTechVaulter wrote: a "big" bottom arm looks that way with pros because they t are gripping so high the angles let that arm be straighter and still get the chest in.


I am beginning to think that too many people try to look like or jump like the elite vaulters when, in reality, few people have the athletic ability to do what they do with the grip that they do. Has anyone ever explored the model for a male vaulter who is under 6' tall and is not running sub-10.8 in the 100m, and only has a vertical in the mid to upper 20's in inches?
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Unread postby vtcoach » Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:12 pm

You also have to look at many elite vaulters in slow motion to see it. Even when their left arm is slightly bent at take-off it is only that way for one or two video frames. It is hard to see that at regular speed.

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Unread postby powerplant42 » Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:07 pm

However, it IS easy to see when an athlete does NOT keep their bottom arm bent outwards at take-off. The athlete should just focus on being able to look through their arms at take-off and during follow-through.

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Unread postby VaultMarq26 » Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:10 pm

powerplant42 wrote:However, it IS easy to see when an athlete does NOT keep their bottom arm bent outwards at take-off.


Great point
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Unread postby vaultman18 » Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:00 pm

VaultMarq26 wrote:
I am beginning to think that too many people try to look like or jump like the elite vaulters when, in reality, few people have the athletic ability to do what they do with the grip that they do. Has anyone ever explored the model for a male vaulter who is under 6' tall and is not running sub-10.8 in the 100m, and only has a vertical in the mid to upper 20's in inches?


Yes the model is called the petrov model it can be applied to any vaulter of any level. It is the only model that will accept any level athlete and not limit their end success.

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Unread postby Tim McMichael » Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:32 pm

vaultman18 wrote:VaultMarq26 wrote:
I am beginning to think that too many people try to look like or jump like the elite vaulters when, in reality, few people have the athletic ability to do what they do with the grip that they do. Has anyone ever explored the model for a male vaulter who is under 6' tall and is not running sub-10.8 in the 100m, and only has a vertical in the mid to upper 20's in inches?


Yes the model is called the petrov model it can be applied to any vaulter of any level. It is the only model that will accept any level athlete and not limit their end success.


Of course, I am going to have to disagree. Everything I said in the "Oklahoma Pole Vault Manifesto" explains why. A shorter athlete who is limited in terms of vertical leap cannot succeed against taller vaulters who can jump off the ground. It is simply impossible. They are giving up too much in terms of center of gravity to start with. a 6'6" vaulter will be gripping over 17' taking off from the same spot as a 5"8" vaulter who is gripping 15'6". This is a crushing advantage. If they both use the Petrov model and apply the same forces to the pole, the taller vaulter will win by more than a foot every time.

Shorter athletes can, however, use their gymnastic advantage to make up some ground. There have been a handful of very small vaulters who have been able to hold their own against much larger competitors. They are few and far between, but it has been done. Joe Dial, Jeff Buckingham, and Greg Duplantis were all under 5’9â€Â

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Unread postby vaultman18 » Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:43 pm

The taller vaulter always has the advantage unless the smaller vaulter can take off with a better jump up so they are at the same point and the pole is at the same angle. It is not impossible for smaller jumpers to do this even if they are not as fast or great jumpers. I just reread your post Tim and the only real difference I could find was the fact you call for a lower take off angle and you want a short push then pull with the left arm.
Tim you are great for this site and the pole vault community I think that if we could have every one be as thoughtful with their posts we might get somewhere.

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Unread postby Tim McMichael » Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:11 pm

Thanks for the kind words. I hope that last post was not too pushy. The last thing I want to do is come across as frustrated and set in my ways. I am only putting my thoughts out there as options or even oddities to consider, not as absolutes. I think Agapit said somewhere that he felt an obligation to be faithful to the lineage of his teachers and mentors. I feel the same.

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Unread postby altius » Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:08 am

"If everyone has to go with Petrov, we might as well measure how tall an athlete is and how far they can long jump and hand out the medals. The shorter athletes don't stand a chance."

A bit over the top dont you think Tim - not your usual style. Yes Joe Dial was relatively short - but I am told by reputable sources that he was a 26' plus long jumper. These same sources told me that although you love to claim that you were only a 20' long jumper - they were also quite sure you were capable of jumping well over 24' if you had to.

The evidence is clear that ordinary athletes with limited training time can master elements of the Petrov model. Tom and Chris Lovell aged just 18 and at 5'6 and 140 pounds, jumped on 15' poles 45 and 40lbs above their body weight respectively. With effective grips around 4.15/4.20 both jumped 5.00m after training on average twice a week for four years. Both employed a free take off - a critical element of the Petrov/Bubka model. If further evidence is needed one only has to consider the performances- and technical model - of a scrawny, physically underdeveloped athlete like 16 year old Vick Parnov - who is well on her way to mastering what one should term the Petrov/Parnov model.

Not world beating stuff for sure but it suggests that most young athletes will be better off aiming for a coherent technical model which can be reduced to its simple elements to allow mastery - and which avoid the many problems faced by athletes relying on the myths and misunderstandings from the past.

I believe that US vaulting will only progess at all levels when a common model of technique is accepted. Until that happens many coaches will continue to sell their own brand of expertise in the sure and certain belief that they can peddle anything if they have the gall to do so because few youngsters are ever in a position to challenge what they are being told.

So the sooner you sort your own model out and present it in a coherent package of instruction, in opposition to the Petrov model, the better. Until you do that. you are providing folk out there with the excuse that there is no one best way to teach the pole vault and they can continue to believe 'my way is a good as any other' even when it runs counter to all of the principles some of us have presented on this board.

Here I would point out that as a coach I went through the major transitions in technical models in both the shot and high jump so I understand the possibilities for alternative - superior - models to emerge in track and field. However like agapit i do not believe there is any technical model which is superior than the Bubka/Petrov model - as I indicated above the sooner it is accepted the better for US vaulting.

Tim I have only returned - very briefly - to the fray because i note your observation that things had gone flat on the board. Trust this will liven everything up.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Unread postby Tim McMichael » Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:41 pm

Yes Joe Dial was relatively short - but I am told by reputable sources that he was a 26' plus long jumper. These same sources told me that although you love to claim that you were only a 20' long jumper - they were also quite sure you were capable of jumping well over 24' if you had to.


Joe long jumped almost 25' in high school. So it isn't a stretch to think that he might have been able to go 26' in his prime. I certainly think so. As for my own abilities, I have had people tell me to my face that they thought I could go over 24’. The only evidence I have, which is my own experience, simply contradicts this. I have tried to long jump at the suggestions of my coaches at OU who wanted some extra points at conference. They gave up on me after a few practices; in none of those did I go over 21’. I also long jumped in a few small meets in Europe that did not have the pole vault on the schedule. Once again, I got beat out of sight.

As far as strength goes, my max bench press was 255. My max ½ squat was 405 which are not bad numbers, but by comparison, Joe could squat almost 600 and benched 320. I trained with some exceptional athletes, and I know how I stacked up against them. When I was at my best, I trained mostly alone, and I did that both through necessity and by design. Working out with other athletes caused me to doubt my ability to compete with them. I was by far the weakest at all the lifts and the slowest in all the sprints.

Another fact to take into account is that, as I have said a number of times, my competitive weight was under 140 pounds. Occasionally I got up to 143 or so, but at 150 I was too slow to be competitive. A person that small simply cannot have the raw power that a larger person possesses. It is not enough to have a high strength to body weight ratio to succeed in the pole vault. You have to find a way to penetrate on a big enough pole with a high enough hand grip to be competitive. This is much easier if you are a larger athlete. I am certain that there are other very small athletes who have done well in this sport, but I am also certain that the list of those at my weight is very short. I know I am not the smallest in stature, but I may be the lightest athlete to ever clear 5.65. When I did it in ’89 this was certainly true, but there may have been others since then; I don’t know.

In ’94, when I reached my physical peak, I cleared 5.70 from 7 lefts in practice before an injury crippled the remainder of my career. During that same span of years, Joe was capable of clearing more than 20’ but was breaking the American Record a centimeter at a time and so got trapped in the same circumstance that caused Bubka’s meet PR to be lower than his capabilities.

As far as speed goes, I did not measure it in my prime. I clocked 4.7 in a 40 yard sprint when I was 21, and I jumped 18’3â€Â

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Unread postby altius » Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:32 am

A good response Tim -in line with your usual reasonable and insightful approach to this board! :yes:
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden


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