Attn: Tim McMichael!

[KirkB]

Whats more important, transfering more energy through top hand?... or possibly sacrificing that energy transfer by pulling with the bottom hand to speed up the inversion?

Unless i still misunderstand your definition of "pull"... to me a bottom arm pull will redirect your weight to your bottom hand. Essentially you wont be making use of the part of the pole in between your hands, and the transfer of energy would be greatly hindered. I heard the "new" definition of pull, given those exercises of lat pull overs, and to me, doing that sounds like a "row"... please enlighten my slow mind once again .

You've got it a bit backwards. The lat pull is at the start of the swing. It's done in conjunction with the long trail leg swing. Whearas a row is really something that's done later in the vault (but not by 6.05 model vaulters).

In my experience, I didn't really think about pulling (lat pulling). I thought about swinging, and the lat pull happens at the same time. Just like on a high bar. I led with my swing, and the pull followed. Or you could say that they happen simultaneously. But you definitely don't initiate the swing with the lat pull. You just accelerate it by pulling - which is what adds energy to the system.

At some point near the shortest chord, the pole "becomes a highbar" and then your weight is distributed somewhat evenly between your 2 hands. But that's much later than the start of the swing, and by then, your hips are already on their way up.

Really, you're trying to think too hard about transfer of energy between the top and bottom arms. Just think about keeping all the pressure of the pole on the top arm, and use the bottom one for balance.

IMHO, if you do it right, you really don't have to think about pulling with the bottom hand at all - it should just come naturally from all your high bar work.

Kirk Bryde

[vault3rb0y]

That makes sense. My coach always tells me i think too hard!

As for the rowing/lat pull, i think it does and must come automatically. If you think about it, you will push your hands too far in front. But there must be pressure in the forward direction to maintain the pole, not movement necessarily. When i vault i think about keeping my hands high and swinging my hips up to, and past them. Everything else probably comes on its own, as you said.

[KirkB]

Rowing? What rowing? I never said anything about rowing (in the context of the 6.05 model, which was the context that I was referring to).

Pressure in the forward direction to maintain the pole? I never said anything about that either, as it's not part of what I consider good technique.

However, as long as you're not directing those comments at me, go nuts. Since this thread is really about Tim McMichael's technique (not the 6.05 model), I guess maybe the rowing and pressure concepts are better answered by him.

As I haven't read B2B yet, I stand corrected on either of these points. But I think the 6.05 model's been fairly well explained in this Advanced Technique forum, so I'd be surprised if I'm off track.

Kirk Bryde

[Pogo Stick]

Whats more important, transfering more energy through top hand?... or possibly sacrificing that energy transfer by pulling with the bottom hand to speed up the inversion?


Unless i still misunderstand your definition of "pull"... to me a bottom arm pull will redirect your weight to your bottom hand. Essentially you wont be making use of the part of the pole in between your hands, and the transfer of energy would be greatly hindered. I heard the "new" definition of pull, given those exercises of lat pull overs, and to me, doing that sounds like a "row"... please enlighten my slow mind once again .

This picture of Lukyanenko is amazing:

Watch the fingers on left hand - he is holding pole with only two fingers at the moment when pole is close to maximum bend! Obviously, his upper hand keeps almost all pressure at this late phase of swing. It looks like one-hand giant swing on high bar. I would say he is definitely not pushing or rowing with bottom arm.

[KirkB]

Wow! Yes, that pic is quite amazing! I wonder if it's his intent to hold the pole that way? Or if he does it that way consistently?

I can't think of any advantage to having such a loose grip that late in the swing.

He's holding the pole with 2 fingers and his thumb (his ring? and pinky fingers are up). Is it possible that his ring finger has an injury that he's favoring? I see no tape.

I would think that having the pinky up wouldn't make that much difference, but the ring finger is certainly an important weight-bearing finger. Unless he had an old, permanent injury that severed the tendons in 2 fingers. In that case, his other 2 fingers would be strong enough to compensate. I wonder how he grips the high bar and rings?

I agree with Pogo Stick's analysis that (unless it's an old injury) he's done most of the swing one-handed - assuming that he's had this finger posture since takeoff. Not a bad thing, really, unless you're striving for the 5.40 model (lat pull with bottom arm immediately after takeoff).

And I agree that he's not rowing (again, unless it's an old injury). But from just this pic, I don't think you can say that he's not (or wasn't) pushing. You don't really need a full grip to push.

Be careful of over-analysis of still pics (I'm a fine one to talk!). You'd have to look a few frames earlier to see if he was pushing or not.

He's already to the point at which he should be starting to balance the weight on both arms, to do a TWO-HANDED-SHOOT-TO-A-HANDSTAND (like on a high bar). The pole will move more to the left when that happens.

Also, notice his narrow grip. Depth perception in this pic might be deceptive, but it looks narrow, and I like it.

I'd like to see other pics/vids of him, to understand better what he's really doing on the pole.

Wow!

Kirk

[KirkB]

Digging for a Lukyanenko vid on YouTube, I came across this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awxf8EQ3 ... re=related

His caption reads: THIS IS THE BEST TAKEOFF OF UNKNOWN VAULTER!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by kreedakul, Age: 20 Country: India.

I'm pretty sure that's Tim McMichael vaulting 18-5, as I saw this vid on the Media page of polevaultpower.com a couple days ago.

So I guess it belongs here, on your thread.

Kudos to you, Tim! Someone in India thinks you have "THE BEST TAKEOFF POSITION!!!!!!!!"

I also think it's a mighty fine, tall takeoff!!!!!

You're under, tho.

Kirk

[golfdane]

Great pic showing the loose pinky in great detail:

http://bp1.blogger.com/_RBQf2Vewihs/R9S ... anenko.jpg

Found it here:
http://paulmerca.blogspot.com/2008/03/w ... doors.html

[Tim McMichael]

Sorry I haven't been involved much in this discussion. I'll be posting soon.

[lonestar]

Is the Russian a double-leg swinger?

[golfdane]

Is the Russian a double-leg swinger?

He drops the leading leg immediately after take-off, but it's up again when he's passing the chord of the pole (as far as I can see from the videos I can find on youtube. Didn't have space on my HD recorder when he jumped 6.01).

[master]

Great pic showing the loose pinky in great detail:

Here's a cropped version of the image that can be embedded in the post.

- master

[Tim McMichael]

LOL, Just shows how hard it is to tell a great deal by pictures. He certainly cannot be pulling with the hand open like that. But the first thing I thought when I saw it was that he had pushed so hard that the impact of the heel of his hand had dislodged his fingers. After takeoff, however, the bottom hand has nothing to do with keeping the pole moving, so with no sensation of pressure in that hand, he has not instinctively closed the fingers back. As far as left arm vs. right arm pulling: at my peak awareness I pulled with my right arm till my swing finished. At that point, I drove my shoulders back toward the box and a split second later transferred all the pressure to my left arm. If I began to pull with the left before I began to extend, it tended to dump my hips out toward the bar. If I pulled after, by only the tiniest fraction, my extension accelerated and the action of the arm pulled me in tight against the pole. So the question is not only a matter of left or right arm pull; both may be at work at different times.